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FP4NC; Relocatingi gear centers ( Lots of photos)

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Shop is quite busy these days. Weather turning nice (80*f today) and with that our customers start ramping up for another Vintage Racing season.....
Have a very good customer who has been running a Typo 61 (Maserati Birdcage) for the last few seasons....Gives the car a good workout and this year he is changing out
the engine block, for a new (reproduction) unit. Engine cases have a lifespan. This is a 4 cylinder block with wet liners (CI) originally built as a 1600CC design...and expanded over
the years by the factory to its final 2.9 L displacement. Expanding the bore has the down side of reducing the internal thickness of the some of the block structural members, and hence the reduced life..
Replacement blocs come from Brian Heart in the UK.......So much for the short history.

as with things made on a "Short or limited Run" basis often differences exist between "similar" parts.....no exception in the case of this block!
First step in making a block swap is to measure everything, and do a test assembly.This includes laying the crank, and fitting all the cam drive gears and cylinder head.....
The engine is an in line 4 having twin overhead cams.....operating two valves per cylinder.....The head is removable but has no head gasket....It seats directly on top of the
iron cylinder liners for sealing the combustion....The coolant is contained within the block via an "O" ring that encases the perimeter of the block where it mates to the head....
All drives on the engine are gear driven....no belts anywhere. This means that the position of the gear centers needs to be controlled closely.

In this case there was a problem discovered when doing the "mock" up There was no gear lash between the crank gear and the first cam idler gear ...in addition there was little to no clearance between
the first idler and the 2and ...but excessive lash (clearance) between the 2and idler and the gear in the head......

It was decided that these conditions needed to be corrected before the block could be put into service...Enter "Yours truly".....................

First order was to get the block on the machine (FP4NC) and aligned square with the spindle....
To do this i retained the crank shaft fitted to the block complete with thrust bearings in place......

To align the machine with the block , i am using the rotation of the crank and the rotation of the horizontal spindle......I made an extension for the front end of the crank...cylindrical (.750" OD)
with a hole through.... A bolt through holds the bar to the crank end....To this bar i have fitted a right angle bar (extension boring bar form a Wohlhaupter boring head kit)....
In the spindle i fit a similar arrangement....By rotating the crank the arm will describe a circle that is at at right angle to the axis of rotation (crank). The same applies to the machine spindle
and its right angle test bar....Now if you fit an indicator to one of the arms and indicate to the opposite bar any difference as the two are moved together shows the difference in alignment...
Of course indicating while rotating both is a bit tough, so i do this test in "quarters". The exact square of the arms is not an issue so long as the testing point along the bar is the same for each
test position...and using round bars while making reading a bit more fiddly...removes additional errors that might be induced by an arm that was not truly flat to the indicator.....Oh and you must
be sure to bias the
crank against the thrust going the same direction for each test point....Any axial move from the crank will negate the indicated results.
Here is the basic setup.....




Here is where having the "tool Makers" table is worth its weight! Getting everything true as indicated within a few tenths is so much easier than shimming and clubbing the part about.
Also of note to mention is that having at least 4 good 2,4,6 blocks and lots of bolts and clamps is a must for doing horizontal setups.....

Once the block was in tram....the next operation here to "Map" the location of all the housing bores for all the bearings and shafts that are involved in the front gear train that drive the cams.

A drawing was done in "SurfCam" of all gear centers. I will use this layout later to relocate the gear centers as needed.

The datum used here is the crank center...dialed directly off the crank after the alignment was complete...


Note that the direction of the axis is reversed on the drawing....that is because when running horizontal the part is seen as being machined from the back side...and the drawing reflects this.

Overall view of the setup......


More to follow...
Cheers Ross

Fritz Werner 2.201

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Just picked up a Fritz Werner 2.201 mill and can't seem to find much information on it.
Makes a pretty wicked sound at high speed, so I'm sure a bearing is gone somewhere.
Anyone have any manuals for parts and operation for these things?
Thanks

Anyone here ever converted a Deckel with standard USA drawbars back to German type ?

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In other words I have this 1980 Deckel FP3 made for US market with standard 5/8-11 draw bar for standard SAE no. 40 tooling. But I'd really rather have it accept the Euro SK40 style tooling that has external threads and it's own lugs. Reason is I have a cache of that type already (including the no. 40 collets) and the adapter to the SOE type collets of which I have gobs of those as well..... and I wouldn't need to use a lug adapter ring.

Almost certain it can be done but wondering the PITA factor...if it requires much disassembly of spindle parts, forget it.

Funny Deckel FP1 video by slick but apparently moron dealer...

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DECKEL FP1 Universalfrasmaschine Heidenhain Maschinenalbert Group Bopfingen - Video Dailymotion

In other words, it's creative and snazzy video but neglects to show...or more importantly let us HEAR...what the machine sounds like so it's close to worthless from a "what is the condition of the machine ?" standpoint. Ok, so we know it moves....great.... :dopeslap:

-----------------------------------------------

Plus I'd suggest the following sound track if he wants to properly drown out the mill noise as it's way cooler...

Ronald Jenkees - Guitar Sound HQ - YouTube

(would you believe that is all done by a young guy in his apartment via one snythesizer ? Actually sounds better than an electric guitar to me....something about the note bending is better...plus more tonal varieties. Google his name to see him play it. )

Deckel lug ring adapters for no. 40 tooling... German keywords for this ?

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In other words the ring that fits between no. 40 tooling flange and the spindle.....2 lugs on one side for the 40 flange slots, and 2 lugs on the other side for the Deckel spindle slots.... What is this in "Deckel German" ? (or if anyone has one for sale here I'd be interested)

I had at least two of these but they got lost in my last shop move.... seems like I made one of them, but not worth the trouble if I could just buy one or two ready to go.

Late Model FP2/FP3 Vertical head oil mod.

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So as requested here is a short thread on the modifications for better lubrication on the late (final generation) FP2 and FP3 machines.
Credit for the information and photos goes to Franz Singer.

Outside view of vertical head and placement of "zerk" oil nipple.
Casting is drill through directly over the transfer gears for the vertical head. Casting is spot faced to give a proper seat for the oil nipple.





Additional work requires a hole drilled through the inner wall of the casting where the gears mount...
An 8mm drill is run into the tapped hole (shown here with the red arrow) and through the rear face of the gear cavity.
This drilling becomes a level holding drain back...Keeps the oil from getting too high from the runoff from being oiled via the oil nipple above the gears....


I am told that the oil nipple needs to be lubed once every 3 days of operation or so.....Me i oiled mine (when i had the machine) every days use....
Figured that with the drain back it was hard to over oil the gears....

Cheers Ross

Deckel FP4A Lifting axel - diameter?

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Hi

I am about to bring home a Deckel FP4A Cnc machine on Thursday and I have not the possibility to go were the machine is and measure.
The question is if someone here know the diameter of the hole / holes in the machine construction were the lifting axel will go in.
I have 2 60mm steel axels and big question is if this diameter is to big to go in?

Hope someone here has an machine maybe and can measure or have some kind of manual were it says the diameter.

Many thanks
Oscar



Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Milling with a Schaublin 13 high speed head?

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Hi folks I revived my high speed head on Friday. It looks great and works as expected (at least for 6mm drills as that is my only collet at the moment :)

My understanding is that ER20 collets with an ER nut will work the E collet bore and threads. I just need to find a good supplier for those which shouldn't be hard obviously.

The question is does anyone have any experience using a high speed head for milling with small endmills? There is no provision to lock the quill that I can find other than the depth stops but being able to run small EM's at up to 5k RPM (not sure exactly what the ratio is but around 2.5:1) would be nice. I can just try it out and worse case I break a few cutters but perhaps I am missing something?

Seems like a small Albricht chuck with a 10mm straight shank might be helpful as well for drilling without messing with the collet nut all the time.

Thanks
Luke

Ever seen a final generation Deckel mill with no paint on the handwheels ? (pix)

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Anyhoo.... wondering how such a nice Deckel, paint wise and otherwise, could manage to have no paint whatsoever on the handwheel spokes ? Also wondering why no paint whatsoever on the square surface surrounding the horizontal spindle ? Did Deckel ever make any that way or was it removed on purpose ? Meanwhile the vertical head paint is absolute perfection.

Sharper Deckel afficianados will notice something else "different" about the X and Z hand wheels ;)

Also this may be the first Deckel on the planet equipped with an Orange vise :)
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Deckel FP2 X axis issue

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Spent some quality time today on a machining project using my 1964 FP2. After a few hours of machining with everything working well, I stopped the mill to change tooling. Upon moving the X axis hand wheel, the table was no longer moving yet the wheel was moving freely and the screw is turning fine. It was about mid table when it stopped working. Milling operations were very light and nothing odd occurred. No binding or stress. Looking at drawings in the manual, it does not appear to have a shear pin that could have failed. Any thoughts before I pull it all a part? Looks like I have to make a tool to get the left side bearing seat unscrewed.

Best regards,


Eric

Source of small spoked hand wheels for Deckel vertical quill ? (pix)

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For the 10mm hex hole to operate the quill. Examples I've had in the past below. First one was probably shop made, second one is from a Maho but nonetheless fit the Deckel as well..... I vaguely recall a company selling them but can't remember who. Wallima.ch shows a few with what appear to be Gedore bent hex with screwdriver handles but I can't find them in the Gedore literature. Thoughts ?






And yes I know the quill wasn't really designed for a lot of drilling, but still prefer something over a plain 10mm hex key.

Deckel FP1/2 All in One Riser on a Budget?

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Hi all,

I was just going to bed last night and suddenly an rather unwelcome idea thrust itself into my conscious mind!

What if (those famous words again!) the FP1 and the FP2 risers could be combined into one single, all singing, all dancing lump!

I scribbled down the idea on a scrap of paper (not the perforated kind) and an idea was born!

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The origins of this idea stem from the gospel according to Ross. in the other riser thread, in response to a wish by Kevin for an extended riser for his high speed head, Ross suggested that Kevin should reverse his FP1 riser on the Y avis and thus present the offset in the forward direction.

Excellent lateral thinking that I should have thought of myself! Unfortunately this idea was not possible but if we are to make a riser from scratch then this idea did present an opportunity.

In the modified idea we could have the FP1 dual riser configuration on one end of the riser and the extended FP2 riser on the other end, thus killing two birds with one stone.

This lump of metal that would be 370 mm long, when placed on the FP1 Y axis would probably cause some of our more sensitive members to reach for the smelling salts but it would be a practical solution that would suit Kevin and others. There will be no need to buy a new riser if changing up to an FP2 from an FP1 or vice versa, and the extra work required to construct this new idea rather than the dual riser would not be that much.

The basis of this idea is that the two risers have the same height and the downfall of this idea will be in the mounting and the gearing which will have to be looked into.

Alan

Ps, oh dear it`s happened again! I rotated the image on my computer but it has reverted to the scanned configuration, any ideas on how to fix this?
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Replacement D4 key pad

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Seen a number of the FP-NC's with the Dialog 4 control. Likely as not the key pads on the control are in shabby condition.
Lots seem to have been converted from earlier control versions (Dialog2, Dialog3) using stick on faces to change the keys over...
Always looks crappy IMHO and often some of the stick on faces are missing or faded to the point of not being readable.
Further the addition of the additional stuck on face extends the keys and makes them look clunky.....

My FP3NC at home has converted key pads, and although still readable still don't look quite correct. The "real" factory key faces
have the characters molded into the key itself., being flush so as to not catch dirt from your fingers...In short the original keys
are just nicer....

Have thought about making some replacements, but time seems always to be in short supply. New key pads are available form Singer, but last
i checked they were well over 800 euros per pad.....(requires 2)


Surfing e-bay last week i came across a person offering a set of Dialog4 key pads and while pricey the cost was well below the usual German sources.

Took a chance and bought a set and they arrived from Slovenia yesterday.....No issues and they look great! Just thought someone here might be searching for
that last item to completer their "Concourse" FP-NC......





Cheers Ross

Finally a lift for the FP1

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Been putting this off for ever, mostly because I'm not a real welder and therefore cringe at what may happen when I strike an arc. I'm hoping it helps me utilize some of the attachments I haven't yet used.
Dan
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Roell & Korthaus KG Solingen-Ohligs - Looking for a manual

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Hello,

I came across this material testing device and was wondering if anybody had a manual OR knew where one might be found..

It is, I think a Materials testing device for measuring tensile strength, Does anybody know for sure? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks
Ray

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Abene Spindle Disassembly - Experience Requested

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The abene manual mentions regreasing the spindle bearings. I have the proper grease and new seals and the machine all apart but I'm not certain how to get the spindle shaft out of the casting.
Currently I have removed all the top end parts except the deep groove ball bearing radial type. ie drawbar, locknut and tabbed washer, thrust bearing.

I have also removed the retaining ring holding the ring gear.

Not sure where to go from here. I have a 40 ton press with lots of working space but don't want to break anything.
Anyone that has already been through this task care to lend their knowledge.
Thanks

Deze advertentie mag u niet missen

THIEL 159 seal problem

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hello all,

I have a problem with a seal leaking on my Thiel 159. It is the upper seal behind the little sprocket. Question is: can I dismantle the part with the 2 allen bolts without any problem. Are there parts going to fall down, or what so ever. I prefer to ask before to get in trouble. Is this seal a standard industrial type of seal?
Many thanks in advance
greetings from Belgium
Joris


Manual Deckel related- Does S20 buttress thread adapter exist for CAT 40 tooling ?

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Only reason I wonder is I have a mega expensive "stackable" boring system that is CAT40 based. Ironically it was used on a manual Deckel...but the only normal range manual Deckel with power draw bar....an FP4MK....so it has a Deckel pull stud.

Yet another "Deckel German" translation needed - What is the "dust cap" for the horiz

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spindle called in Deckel German for .de search purposes ? Only occurred to me recently that once I change to SK40 S20 tooling I'll need a different style cap for the horizontal spindle....could just keep a low profile tool or no. 40 collet in place I guess...
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