Long reach boring,FP4NC

June 2, 2020, 9:16 am

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Bit slow here and folks seem a bit tense so though it might be nice to share a few shots of a job i am finishing up.
Some time back i posted photos of the parts of a job i was given to straighten the main housing bores on a Porsche 917K.

Crankcase is mag. and long enough (35") to be a size issue.
Lots of work has gone into this project. Some tooling construction and some false starts , and finally i am down to the short straws.

Engine is built with a lower shaft running in the case that delivers the output power from a spur gear at the center of the crank.
Last portion of the job was to over bore the housings that carry the shaft support bearings....
This was necessary to assure that the crank and output shafts were running dead parallel and at the correct center to center distance to give the proper gear lash.

Machine is setup to run horizontal. Alignment is done using the actual rotation of the crank and all adjustments to tram done via the universal table (that thing might be the best accessory ever)

Boring tooling is Sandvik "Capto" fine boring head coupled with a base adapter (CAT 40) a 100 mm spacer sleeve and two 80mm spacer sleeves. (needed to buy an additional 80 mm spacer for this)

Here is a shot of the boring bar fitted so you can see the relative length (20" from the tool face to "CAT" flange.



Fine boring head....uses insert tooling, in this case high positive. Adjustable in ..01mm increments on the diameter....



Setup is too long to to fully exit the case on retraction, so the technique is to set the bar into the case then make the connection between the machine and the bar.
I used the Capto joint at the spindle adapter being it was shorter and easier to control when making up the joint....






More fun to follow.

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Time for a repaint. Aciera F4

June 2, 2020, 8:12 pm

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Well.....
The majority of the repairs are completed and the time has come to decide on what paint to use.
A little research shows that many Euro machines are RAL 6011, which is a sort of green.
(please excuse my colour deficient descriptions)
My machine is a child of the late 60's, and I think it was originally Gray. It is now wearing Jacobs coat of many colours, few of which are remotely original.

SO.....
would anyone care to offer comments on what would be the original colour??

Thanks
Peter

My new to me copy of a Deckel FP2 milling machine.

June 3, 2020, 10:33 pm

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I just bought a copy of a Deckel FP2 milling machine. I had never heard of the manufacturer and am wondering if anyone has heard of the manufacturer. It was made by the Beijing Instrument Company 26 years ago and is in like new condition. It was purchased by a retired machinist 25 years ago and put in his garage. He is moving into a retirement community and couldn't take the mill. He claims he has less than 100 hours on it and only used the vertical head. It was set up in his garage next to the wall where you couldn't get the draw bars into the horizontal spindle. Came with a fixed table and the universal table, 4 different size horizontal arbors, cat 40 tooling & holders for end mills and a full set of collets. Included was the indexing head and all index plates and gears for driving the index head. All the horizontal arbors, index plates and some cat 40 holders are still in the factory cosmoline and never used. The machine is extremely nice and seems very well made, 3 HP main drive and 1/2 HP feed motor for the 3 axis. The mill without the tables weight about 2100 pounds. Even came with a Kurt 6" vise. This mill has changed my opinion on some of the stuff from China but maybe 25 years ago they made some good machines. The guy even had all the manuals and parts books with it along with the original paper work.

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Need help! FP3NC Dialog4

June 4, 2020, 11:53 am

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Every time I try to reset the axis (X,Y,Z)the machine will stop and a "V" will show next to the "R" on Screen for the Z-axis. Sometimes the "V" will appear during up or down movements of the Z-Axis and the machine will stop all movements.

It is becoming very frustrating so I hope someone on this forum can help me.

Deckel KF 12 R tire mould duplicator

June 4, 2020, 11:59 am

≫ Next: Oil grooves and Deckels

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whether this machine is real or a figment of the imagination. joke
maybe someone has seen this machine live, or knows where it could be found and bought? thanks any information welcome.

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Oil grooves and Deckels

June 5, 2020, 3:06 am

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A few days ago, I had to make a new bronze bushing for the piston axle of my vintage bar-cutter mower...

I was in a hurry because grass is growing incredibly quick now and I need that machine back together and running again asap, before I can't even open the door and get out anymore ! :D

Since the lubrication of the original bushing was only relying on three holes with inside chamfering, I decided to simply mill some kinds of oil pockets in the new bushing with the FP1.











Anyway, that lead me to think about how I'd do to cut "real" oil grooves in a bushing and thought I'd share my experiments. ;)
Here's the *very* quick and *very* dirty reality check I did Yesterday, to see if I could do it on the deckelS11 .

You need a combination of a circular and a linear motions, but unlike what's going on when you thread on a lathe or grind an helix on a tool grinder grinder, the linear movement must change its direction every half-revolution of the spindle...
So the idea is to replace the spiralgrinding attachment with a simple cam, and a fixed stop. The cam is circular, but features a slot allowing to de-center it.
It is mounted on the gear that drives the workhead spindle when spiral grinding and rests on a fixed stop attached to the sine bar of the spiral grinding attachment.
Of course, since the S11 is a tooland cutter grinder, its table is free to move axially.
Therefore when spinning the workhead spindle while applying the cam on the stop, each revolution of the spindle generates a linear motion equal to the cam offset.

The pictures are from the quick test I did with a sharpie, to see the groove path the circular cam would generate.












Some tweaking left, but already quite good !

Fp4nc npp90

June 7, 2020, 2:39 am

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I have a a question regarding the NPP90 card.
Currently the machine is working but with a couple of lubrication timing issues.
On the NPP90 located in the PLC unit all the LED's are out (off)
I understand that this is a 'loss of program data' issue regarding the EPROMS.
These EPROMs were replaced with new items back in 2005 with the correct data along with a new battery, and the machine has worked fine since.
Would somebody be so kind as to look at their NPP90 and let me know what the LED status is with their card?
I still have the original EPROM software so if required I can re-burn the data.
It just seems strange that the card reports a complete software loss yet the machine performs almost faultless.
I believe that the 'Spindle Head' lubrication timing is controlled from this card, and this is currently my only issue with the machine.

Thanks,
Nick...

New Deckel owner over here... FP2NC

June 10, 2020, 6:11 am

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Well I bought this machine as a parts machine. Got a good deal at auction. But now the deal for the machine I was buying has fallen through. So I'm debating trying to get this one back in service. Or finding another that needs some love and making one out of them. There are a few things missing and I am taking inventory of them. I'll be asking for help finding them. The most notable thing missing is the table. It was auctioned separately and I got outbid. So I am looking for a table that will work with it.





I am presently trying to determine what is what with the control system too. I have read most of the threads and have thought about trying to do a linuxcnc upfit to it since some things seem to be missing.

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Thiel TH150 top slide lubrication

June 10, 2020, 9:35 am

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Hi all

I hope this is the right place



The top sliding head is getting stiffer and stiffer.

I believe its a chain drive and although I managed to locate the drain plug for the top chamber I cannot find any way to add lubricant ?

The outer two nuts are clamps , the middle one is used to move the sliding head.

Does anyone have any ideas ?

Peter

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Safety Handweehls Deckel FP

June 11, 2020, 3:51 am

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I like to disassembly the Safety Handweehl's of a Deckel FP2, does someone ever made that for whatever reason?
I realy need some expert help, it seems the hardened Pin's kept extreme tight in place. What options do i have to get it apart ??

As you guys can see, one is other than the other; it meens that the bushing from the bigger weehl is one part with the winder/ crank... but inside they may look the same!?



Thanks for any help!!! :skep:

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How to make this cover removable

June 21, 2020, 8:48 am

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This is off-topic for this forum, but I am sure the regulars here can answer my question, so I'm doing it anyway. I suppose the machine (Studer cylindrical grinder) is Swiss so that sort-of counts.

The machine has an option to put a 200mm (8") grinding wheel on the right side. I just got the necessary parts from someone in Melbourne, and am fitting them. The wheel shroud fits here, like this:





My question concerns the cover (below, left) which is used when the right-hand wheel is not in use. I removed it from the large belt shroud with a hammer from inside. I had originally thought it was welded on, but in fact it was only retained by friction and paint:



I want to be able to attach and remove this cover, and have it stay in place without vibration. My question: what's a good way to modify this cover to make it easy to remove but not sloppy? One idea: enlarge the ID (say) 0.1mm, add grooves for a couple of O-rings, and rely on O-ring friction. Or slit the cover at the bottom, and add a clamping strap around the OD. Or add three pins around the periphery to the cover and machine three angled slots for them in the belt shroud. Is there an easier/better way?

Both covers are aluminium castings, probably around 7mm (bit over 1/4") thick.

Thiel 159 duplex HELP! Power Feed Not Engaging

June 22, 2020, 9:10 pm

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Hi guys

Bought a 159 duplex a few months ago having never seen one before and not knowing how the feeds work.. once I figured it out I realised that the feeds are just not working at all.

What I find odd is that the rapid feed still works, but the normal power feeds don’t. Having no experience with these machines I’m wondering where to start looking for the potential causes? Could it be a broken shear pin? If so where could it be? Also could it be the clutch for the power feeds isn’t engaging? Is there a separate motor to engage the feeds?

There is very little documentation on the internet of these machines and how they work, so I’m hoping someone on here can share some knowledge!

Thanks in advance
Ben

Deckel FP3L DRO

June 24, 2020, 4:21 pm

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I need a direction for manufacturer and installation of 3 Axis DRO system. Help !!!!

FP3 2201 electrical diagram

June 26, 2020, 2:57 am

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I have sold a FP3 2201 (active)and promised the buyer a electrical diagram
Well It turned out I do not have any:angry: All given away with the machines
(that made me make scans of all the diagrams I have right now )
So is here someone with a pdf from such a diagram
Best would be for the 6004004214 but all are welcome

Peter

Remote indexer on Dialog 4 working

June 27, 2020, 9:10 am

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I lashed up an air indexer to my Dialog 4 control this week. Simple job being done, could have been done other ways, I wanted to use this as a dry run to make sure I knew what to do for a more complex job later on. The indexer is an Erickson 400, it only needs a common 5 port double acting solenoid air valve to operate it, the same connection works for a Haas or other rotary axis with a separate control box. there's a M-code output built into the control, it's a momentary 24VDC 300ms signal activated by an M49 in a program. Not knowing what it's power capacity is, I wanted to have the lowest possible load on that circuit so I used an electronic relay to trigger the remote box.

I picked an Omron G3FD-X03SN-VD SS solid state relay and a base to fit the DIN rail in the cabinet. I ran the M49 wire to the input of the relay, and ran a ground to a machine ground terminal in the cabinet. The NO contacts connect to a length of cord I plan to wrap up and store in the cabinet when not in use.
Don Sentner found the circuit in the electrical prints, and installed the pin and a wire in the plug for me. I can't point out how to do that except the circuit was labeled M49 on the print, he had the correct terminal pin and the crimp tool and knew how to locate the circuit.

Here's the program I used. I think if I do this again I'll just loop within the main program, I wanted to try my hand at a local subroutine.

%
($%101/000120"MILL HEX INSERT W INDEXE)
N10 G0 X0 Y-1.5 Z1
N20 %*1
N25 L5 N20 N20
N30 G0 Y2 Z3
N40 M30


%101*1
N5 G0 X0 Y-1.5 Z1
N10 G0 Z0.83
N20 G1 Y1.5 F33.0 S+500
N30 Z0.79
N40 Y-1.5
N50 X0.005 Z0.781 S+600
N60 Y1.5 F25.0
N70 G0 Z1
N70 M49

?

In this case the rapid is slow enough and the indexer fast enough that no dwell is needed before resuming cutting. On other machines and indexers I've added an M4 dwell on the line after the M49 to allow the machine to wait for the index motion to finish before engaging the cut. There is no completed operation signal on the D4 control, at least not that I've found.

The control box shown is way more complicated than needed for this. Inside the starter enclosure is a relay, the solenoid valve, a 120VAC to 24 VDC transformer to run the valve and relay and the wiring needed to connect to the Erickson indexer. The blue pushbutton operates a switch to manually operate the indexer. This is all that's needed here. The black box is the interface for a Prototrak machine. It has a transformer, a relay and a digital timer to receive the go signal from the Prototrak and return a momentary completed operation signal to the Prototrak, none of which is needed for the Deckel so ignore it for this, I just found it easy to leave it all in the circuit for now.












The sound is terrible on this, it really wasn't chattering.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRdueWqXwjM" target="_blank">

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FP2 Y-axis vertical power feed shaft repair

June 29, 2020, 2:49 am

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I got my Deckel FP2 about seven years ago. It's second generation, built in 1964.

When I got it there were some serious problems that needed attention. There were also some "little things" that I noticed but they didn't keep me from using the machine and didn't appear to be doing any damage, so I left them for "later".

One of those was a rumbling noise when the motor was running. I figured it was probably the motor bearings or the bearing on the upper motor pulley input shaft, which Peter and others here have said is usually damaged.

One of the other forum members here (Karl, Charly_DE) has been working on this part of his own FP2, and on the feed/speed boxes, and offered to help me with mine. He came over this past weekend with some bearings and seals that he had purchased alongside those for his own machine, and some extra gaskets that he had cut. Since he's just done this to his own machine, and knew exactly what was needed, it was very fast. We cleaned out the speed gearbox (which was not particularly dirty and and looked good inside):



which now also has a proper gasket instead of glue under the cover:



The more interesting part was around the rear power input shaft bearing, which in this photo is hidden behind the chain gear and lower circular flange/cover:



Removal of the rear bearing is straightforward if the vertical shaft which feeds power to the Y-axis feed can be disconnected. For example see the following post Deckel FP2 OIL LEAK and posts 5, 10 and 17 in that same thread. Post 13 in that thread has good photos of this feed.

I have never before removed the rear cover from my machine, but through the gaps I remember seeing an odd-looking "overlong" taper pin on the cylindrical piece that connects the lower feed shaft to the Y-axis drive at the top (the little stub sticking down at the top right of this photo):



The shaft (not shown, coming up from the bottom) is connected to this by a hollow cylinder attached top and bottom with taper pins. See the photos here: Deckel FP2 OIL LEAK . The idea is that to remove the input power feed shaft bearing, you drive out those taper pins and slide the hollow cylinder down. This provides enough clearance to lift and remove the lower shaft. Then you can access the bearing. (Alternatively you can grind off part of the flange, as described by Peter in the post linked above.)

Here you can see what was needed to remove that cylinder on my machine. The "odd looking taper pin" turned out to be a piece of a 4.2mm drill bit, crudely ground and hammered into place. But when Karl looked at the cylinder, he noticed a bulge near the taper pin hole, visible here:



In this photo you can see the source of that bulge, which is the remains of a taper pin, friction welded to the inside of the tube by a crash:



I think this is similar to what Dennis found inside the gearbox to his machine, where a taper pin had been sheared. Fortunately the access that we have here is better. For anyone who needs to remove this, a good method is to slit it lengthwise with a fine abrasive cutting wheel on a Dremel, going almost to the top. Then spread it with a nut splitter:



When I am done making it, I'll post a photo of the replacement for this part, which will be the same on the bottom as the normal cylinder but on the top will be secured with a split clamp and pin.

By the way, as Peter had predicted, the rear input bearing was worn/noisy. It's now been replaced with a new FAG 2RS bearing from which the inner seal (and grease) have been removed. Outer seal is intact.

The other source of noise is the motor pulley, which has a 24mm keyed shaft. The grub screw holding down the key was loose, and the pulley has wobbled enough to wear the shaft and key slot. I've got the motor apart now to replace the bearings. I will probably grind the shaft between centers down to 23.8mm and bush the pulley for an interference fit on that shaft.

An interesting question is, how did the power mechanism create enough torque to do the damage shown above? We checked and the shear pin mechanism is working as it should. A 2mm soft steel pin can not transmit enough power to do such violence. My theory is that the Y axis was crashed during a rapid move where the Z axis was moving downwards. The energy source for the damage was NOT the normal feed mechanism, but rather the kinetic energy of the mill table and support moving downwards. These can transmit that energy to the feed shaft that runs from front to back through the bottom of the machine, and via that path to the Y-axis feed shaft.

Moral of the story: make sure Y is stopped when doing X or Z moves!

Karl, thanks again for your help!

After I am done with the motor and the new shaft coupling, now that the machine is apart, I guess it's finally time to paint the side and back covers...


Cheers,
Bruce

Getting an MT4 to 40 taper sleeve off a Wohlhaupter UPA-3 boring head

July 1, 2020, 3:24 pm

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Hey y'all,

I found a Wohlhaupter UPA-3 boring/facing head for my Deckel FP2. From the story the seller gave me, this should be 1969 vintage or thereabouts, and the previous owner bought it new for his hobby shop. It was absolutely filthy with a black paste-like substance, which is because apparently the previous owner enjoyed machining a particular kind of black wood.


It cleaned up OK on the outside and it mostly moves well though there's some stickiness or rough spots, presumably due to detrium in the head. I'd like to do a proper disassembly and cleaning, but to do that I think I'll have to get the MT4-40 taper sleeve off it. This probably hasn't been off the boring head since the before the Beatles broke up.


I'm thinking penetrating oil and then using some kind of puller from the top of the shank to under the drive collar on the sleeve.
Are there any tricks to this that I should be aware of?

Siggi

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Whatsa Sixis?

July 2, 2020, 7:42 pm

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So I was looking for a lathe and I came across this little mill:

before the DRO was attached:

The seller says it has "all" the accessories. In the pictures there is an indexing attachment, rotary table with a chuck attached, fixed and inclinded table.




The seller is a start up drone manufacturer. He bought it from a collector in upstate NY. The collector had friends in Switzerland and made periodic trips there when he collected the accessories. He was able to pick through a warehouse with what was left of Sixis after they liquidated.

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Deckel FP1 type and year

July 4, 2020, 11:49 am

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Hi all,

I have tested old Deckel FP1, machine works pretty good but I have no machine's documentation.
It does not have "stickshift", has levers for X and Y feeds and wheels to change gears. Plate has type "F.P.I" and Number (serial?) "8025", looks like MK1.
When this machine could be manufactured, any guess?

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MAHO/INDRAMAT problem

July 9, 2020, 3:49 pm

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I have and have had since new a 1990 MH600E2 and have had little trouble except the tool changer. For the last 10 years I have had an increasing problem of the main motor being hesitant to start, then not starting at all. I fitted a new KDV unit and that seemed to fix it, but no, after 3 machining jobs I now get an error E93 (n < n min not low during spindle run-up) and no spindle response. On the KVA unit there is the error NO RF! I would appreciate any help no tech’s have been able to so far.